Rationalizing why Battler saw “living Kinzo”

EP5 Not how do we explain Battler seeing Kinzo but rather why he wanted to see Kinzo in the first place. Have you given this another thought? Battler himself made a blue counter saying that he confused Kinzo by some blanket, at that point Lambdadelta didn’t bother to counter him.

Excluding the fact that game piece Battler was being controlled by the witches, he could still not do moves that weren’t out of his control. This is mentioned in the game, therefore I believe that he had reasons of his own for claiming to have seen Kinzo. If we recall prior to seeing “living Kinzo” Battler had some internal monologue in which he starts to doubt whether it was the right call or not and if he made mistake by letting Erika trick him into helping her.

It’s strange to mistake a blanket for a person and even be led to believe you had a conversation, right? Battler claims in blue later in the game that he was “excited” therefore he thought to have seen and had a chat with Kinzo. That’s meta Battler’s way of rationalizing why his other self did such thing but I think there’s a better explanation than the one he poorly gave us. Of course this is only an alternative interpretation. Tsk tsk.. Battler.

Rationalizing this, it’s more likely that the reasons behind it was that Battler wanted to have an excuse in case his “unintentional discovery” brought calamity to his family. What leads me to this reasoning? The text that comes a bit before that scene serves as nice proof of this.

Battler is clearly worried about not being liked (hated) by his cousin Jessica, who after many years he had not seen, same goes for his cousins aunts and uncles and overall of the consequences of playing around will bring to Ushiromiya family Battler does this. This is why Battler thought of an excuse that would justify him finding the gold.

This could also be interpreted that Battler already suspected that Kinzo was dead (though unlikely) therefore his claim would be outrageous to people that knew he was no  longer in this world, however, by the same reasoning they couldn’t talk back for the same reason. Kinzo is supposed to be dead. No one wants to reveal that.

If Kinzo was indeed alive then because of how odd he is, it wouldn’t be unlike him to go out for a drink in the middle of the rain”. This later mentioned in the first encounter against Eiserne Jungfrau which Kinzo of the magic world makes such statement followed by Battler using the same claim. This evident easily helps me gets past Knox’s 8th: It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented and with what is mentioned above everything “makes sense”.

In other words, even with a bit of help from a certain someone who had died a long time ago. Battler thought it was a “safe move” to say it was Kinzo because he is the impartial party in this island as the gold being “his” he  would not object or take part in the distribution (because he was dead). If it was any other Ushiromiya or servant they could be questioned, etc. Simply put Kinzo is as usual the best scapegoat.

In others words, that’s how we can explain Battler seeing Kinzo in EP5 rather than that sloppy claim of a blanket ignoring that he couldn’t possibly have mistaken him because it is simply not possible in this game as “no person would make Kinzo by sight!” This is the part where everything ties nicely back to the idea that Battler’s claim to have seen Kinzo was indeed deliberate even before the end of EP 5.

Simply the existence of living Kinzo and Battler’s sloppy reasoning this level of reasoning is possible. What do you think, everyone?

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8 Responses to Rationalizing why Battler saw “living Kinzo”

  1. Digdri says:

    Right into the wasps’ nest. An interesting topic you picked here. Also I really like your idea to much this post to an Umineko dedicated extra blog to go in depth with the more interesting topics. I’ve seen many people posting about individual Episodes and obviously all the anime ep reviews but never stumbled on such a analytical project.
    The most condensed form of discussion about Umineko still is the Animesuki boards but this forum-style 10k+ post collages just don’t translate well into focuses discussion and are most of the time all over the place, anywhere and nowhere and a pain to read. So I have high hopes that you may lure some of the more active “theory crafters” over here and make this an interesting platform for discussions.

    As you requested topics of interests over in your JaP intro post some of my ideas:
    – The obvious EP5 mind fuck: Whats up with the knock and the letter Bern and Lambda discuss about endlessly? Whats your take on this web of red? Is it even relevant?
    And the other: Whats up with this “evil son” thats torturing Natsuhi? Who is behind this?
    – Back at EP4: What this whole journey of Ange about and while is it like 1/3 of this story? So much contradiction in her reasoning about what /why she wants to do stuff. What did she really see/realize in the captains house? What was this meeting on the island about subtracting the magical stuff. Why could she help Maria in the end? What do this tell us about the core of the mystery? Think thats a rather underestimated part of the whole story. (And many people simply hate Ange so the don’t want to deal with this very much.)
    – And finally as much more general idea: What is this whole magical / metaphorical stuff about? Detective story including so many fantastic characters and EPIC battles in EP2-4. By now we have more meta/magic world characters then real people in their. What do these battles and characters really stand for when analyzing the murder cases. (Especially the more vague characters as Gaap, Erika and her henchmen, the goats and butterflies etc.). Perhaps its even interesting looking back to this big Beato vs. Lia battle. Its so packed with symbolism I think I reread it 2 times.

    An regarding THIS topic:

    I have to say I’m not really convinced thats what this part is supposed to tell us. You have a good point that Battler someone already realizes how he as an “outsider” may cause chaos and a power struggle if he became the next head and had to find way to gain everyones approval but he doesn’t even have the gold at this point in time and he is not the guy to think ahead THAT much IMO even if he is “remote-controlled” at that moment. Thats clearly a question about in which order he realized this things but I assume he already “saw” Kinzo way before thinking of all the consequences. Thats more treasure hunting Battler then scheming Kira I would expect at this point. ;P

    The idea that he realized that Kinzo is dead seem even more unlikely to me. Erikas talk about a potential charade only started in Kinzos study IIRC and even there Battler tried to rejects all her claims. Piece Battler is also always presented as absolutely NOT up-to-date on anything regarding the conference and the latest events on the island when first setting foot on the island due to his long absence. As he doesn’t have any motive to actually meet Kinzo he also doesn’t pick up Natsuhis suspicious and evasive reaction to this as all the parents do AND he has no comparison to the event one year before. So I guess he is the last person on the island come to the conclusion that Kinzo is dead by now.
    One option would be that Rudolf & Kyrie mentioned something like this before the trip to the island but that also highly unlikely as he always seem genuinely shocked about the way the adults business talk really proceeds (like all the other kids).

    Besides to trick the reader with his first person narrative to eventually have an excuse in a discussion with the adults IF he would succeed in his search…. that just to weird and mixing the layers of this story to much.

    But I perhaps have an interesting alternative reasoning why this scene is happening. It also has some highly speculative points but lets try this reasoning:
    The scene Battler describes is definitively a “magical” scene in the same why we had people meet bunny girls etc. Their is this often proposed theory by fans that all this magical scenes obviously never happened THIS way but have some relevance as metaphoric representation of the real events. (e.g. Kanon has no laser blades but he had some improvised weapon to defend himself with instead; there where no stake girls or goats but there was a fight with someone etc.)
    So translation this “there is a realistic core to scene” idea to the meeting with Kinzo: What if Battler really found something of Kinzo possession or even Kinzos corpse itself that made him a) realize the last step to find the gold (metaphorically pointing him to the right location) and b) realize that Kinzo really is dead (and perhaps even understanding something about his intentions or his new position in this whole struggle).
    At first I was like “Would anyone really be so stupid and disgraceful to put his remains / belongings somewhere outside etc.?” but on the one side we don’t really know where Battler is right at this moment IIRC and even before there was someone who had no problem throwing grandpa into a boiler… so thats obviously a mute point.

    This theory also serves another interesting purpose. If this exacted scene made him realize that Kinzo is dead, his golden truth at the end becomes really easy to comprehend as he would be the only investigation person in this version of the story to ever see this “part of the truth” (Erika never was allowed to see this), so its no wonder he could pull out the fact to everybodys surprise… or phrased differently: as he witness this first hand its a truth to him and only him (perhaps thats why we don’t get red truth here).
    I know this theory is equally problematic with this mixing of selective narrator information and the later discussion about this scene with would rely on this really selective informations given. But I like how this fit really well into this idea how all the other magical on-chessboard events before served the purpose of showing Beato one-sided, twisted perspective version of the truth.

    So what do you think, game master? ;P

    • keikakudoori says:

      Good questions. A few of them are already included in this project along with others. I’ll add them some of them as I go. What I’ll tell you for now is that Ange is in one of the categories. I have 5 EPS and many hours to cover for each game, not to mention TIPS among other things, so there are many topics to cover.

      Starting from zero for any blog is a terribly difficult task, that’s one major reason why people who blog get easily discouraged. Hopefully some of JaP’s popularity will move some of the Umineko readers to this place and it won’t be as difficult as before. I’ll have to repeat the process of adding the site to Google search, yahoo, etc etc so it won’t be a thing over night. Of course, any additional help from the readers to promote the place is welcomed.

      This project will be similar but a lot more “core” like Chiru to the mystery than before. I like JaP entries however, while longer in writing they do take longer to make and Umineko’s mystery is far too large for it. The difference is that “Tea Party” will be in in shorter format and it will deal with more focused topics than JaP did which it served to cover a large and general amount of the mystery by “chess moves” as you’ve seen. The requests you mentioned are good example of parts of the mystery that required further investigation because the game doesn’t necessarily explains and only “hints” that there is something else going on. This, of course, can be theorized over and over until a “plausible” truth is reached.

      Mystery part: These are all possible truths and that’s the most interesting part. This entry was designed to search for additional ways to tackle the mystery which wasn’t properly explained and give it some additional thoughts in hopes to reach other possible truths. Battler isn’t the smart knife in the drawer so it’s unlikely, like it was mentioned in the first option, that he thought that far, but as you also mentioned it’s possible that maybe it was mentioned to him or he overheard something about Kinzo being dead from his parents/relatives.

      But also there’s a certain moment IIRC where Battler seems extremely “bored” at the family conference while waiting for Kinzo to show up so they can discuss the inheritance. This could also be attributed to him knowing that Kinzo won’t come out because Battler already knows Kinzo isn’t alive. This scene is similar like the one in EP 4 where the siblings are waiting for Kinzo to come down to the lobby before they are killed by this “Kinzo”. They all were confident that Kinzo would not come out. In EP4 most siblings get killed but Krauss (and company) and in EP5 Krauss gets killed a bit later in the story, in both of them everyone was waiting for a dead man to come out. Maybe someone like Battler “saw” Kinzo/remains etc and learned the truth.

      This is, of course, simple speculation and there aren’t enough evidence to build a case but it’s still very interesting. As for me, I don’t believe that Battler is that smart even if being controlled, however, you raise a good point when you mention that Battler could’ve “seen” something else that made him “realize” the real situation at that point. This reasoning makes sense.

      “his golden truth at the end becomes really easy to comprehend as he would be the only investigation person in this version of the story to ever see this “part of the truth”

      This speculation is very likely. Battler saw something/someone there but maybe he was never able to piece it all together until he understood Beatrice’ mystery at the very end of EP5 so he didn’t do anything (or maybe his game piece did) I’d like to believe that there was some “logic” to his actions which can be explained which is why this entry was created. Interesting reasoning of yours it certainty makes a lot of sense.

      When we see that something not so critical at first glace can open up paths to additional possible truths and allows further reasoning it’s certainly a good sign. Welcome to the Witches’ Tea Party.

      • Digdri says:

        “Starting from zero for any blog is a terribly difficult task,..”
        Wish you luck with this. You have really much dedication for this analysis and it shows. I think there will be many people who appreciated this.

        “But also there’s a certain moment IIRC where Battler seems extremely “bored” at the family conference…”
        Thats the problem this long novels… don’t remember any details about this. But you have a good point with this general idea. Battler spent much more time with the adults in EP5 then in any other due to his involvement in the inheritance problem and due to hanging out with Erika who also likes to be close to them for obvious reasons. Seem almost like the polar opposite to EP4 where he didn’t see the action of any of them when they started their business stuff.
        So I think your right with this. While Battler never had a big chance to realize the situation of Kinzo in any game EP5 still gives him the biggest chances to patch the facts together.

        “Battler saw something/someone there but maybe he was never able to piece it all together until he understood Beatrice’ mystery at the very end of EP5 so he didn’t do anything…”
        Thats also an interesting spin on this idea. I think I like it even more. It keeps this idea about exclusive informations while I think is really import as a whole to the way this different truths are constructed in EP5 (and fit very well what Ryu07 wrote in his Anti-Mystery vs Anti-Fantasy explanation essay …. “Last Queen problem” etc.). But still makes more sense that Meta-Battler also only was able to strike with the golden truth after going back to all what he knows, incorporating Know rules in his reasoning etc. at the very end. Because for Meta-Battler there was still nothing to be gained from finding dead Kinzo as he already knew that he wasn’t alive any more in some undefined way.

        Something that crossed my mind right now: Where was Kinzos always mentioned ring at the diffrent stages of this chessboard. Besides the cape and the ring the really isn’t much that someone like Battler would link to Kinzo in a blink of an eye besides finding his corpse of course of cause.
        But the idea of the corpse still doesn’t sit so well with me (even if it makes more sense then reason Kinzo is dead by finding his ring etc.) as Battlers reaction would be kind of bizarre.
        “Oh hey, there is a corpse. Look its pointing somewhere. Thats so interesting. I think I should follow this direction and leave the corpse as it is.” Seem like a really ridiculous reaction. But well… thats the point where the “remote-controlled to the gold” part kicks in so perhaps that doesn’t need to make sense.

        Last interesting aspect about Battler finding a ” final hint”. The story tries to suggest that Erika got this riddle reasoned out and only pushed Battler to the right thoughts and didn’t want the gold in the end so Battler “got it from her”. But if this last hint really was the reason he found the gold its really HIS only accomplishment and he is unquestionable the rightful finder of this treasure. 😀
        Thats why Kinzos “talk” with Battler at this point makes even more sense.

  2. Digdri says:

    Oh and about topics … I forgot to list the obvious master questions of the original arcs:

    Who killed Nanjo and how in EP3?
    “Who am I?” in EP4

    But I guess they are already on your list anyway as they are so central to these stories and they are so many wild guesses about them on the net anyway. ^^

  3. Sacchi says:

    Beatrice has used the red truth to contradict Battler’s statements many times, with red truths that don’t necessarily explain or are connected with what actually just happened.

    I think this might be the same. The red truth is: “No person would mistake Ushiromiya Kinzo by sight. ” This doesn’t mean that Battler saw Kinzo. Ok, I’ll explain myself. It does mean that Battler saw Kinzo, but it doesn’t mean that this Kinzo existed. In episode 5, I believe, we were shown that Natsuhi talks to Kinzo (who’s actually dead) while having tea. Kanon was also there, and Beatrice states (not sure if in red truth) that Kanon definitely saw Kinzo talking with Natsuhi. However, Battler has started to understand how the world works and claims that Kanon saw Kinzo because Kanon was also participating in the huge lie that Kinzo is dead.

    I think we should apply the same here. Kinzo is most definitely dead. Battler might have seen him because he’s believing in a lie, not sure which.

    • Sacchi says:

      By the way, while this is important, I think it’s more important to reason if Battler is Natsuhi’s son who wants revenge on her in the 5th game.

      • Sacchi says:

        I’m replaying the fifth game’s finale, and look at what I find:

        He lied about it intentionally to prove that his viewpoint was subjective, therefore he was never the detective of the story, and could have killed the cousins, thus creating a new truth, which put in doubt Erika’s truth. I’m not that bad xD

      • Digdri says:

        I don’t think there is something like “more important” in a story like this. Only when you fit all the pieces in the puzzle the picture will give a clear view an the motive it presents. And IMO the problem about Natsuhi’s son is just at the opposite end of the frame for the picture. 😛

        About the pictures: Thats Dlanor’s _interpretation_ for what Battlers argument was meant to accomplish. IMO the story makes it look more like he just try to challenge the result of the trial with the little options he has left no matter what even if his reasoning is as ridiculously unrealistic as e.g. in EP4 just to make a point on “no other way possible”. He even calls it ridiculous himself. ^^ But as Battler never commented on if Dlanor is right with his intentions it’s just a theory like every other by us. 😉

        But still a good find and important quotes.

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